Ryan Foland speaks with Park Howell, who is a business storytelling consultant, podcast host, and keynote speaker.
In this episode of our podcast series, Ryan and Park delve into the power of storytelling in building trust and connection.
Tune in for an interview packed with ideas and tips on refining your public speaking skills and staying relevant in a constantly evolving landscape.
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Welcome to the World of Speakers podcast brought to you by SpeakerHub. In each episode, we interview a professional speaker and reveal their very best tips and tricks. You'll learn to improve your presentation skills, keep your audience engaged, and learn how to grow your business to get more gigs and make more money.
Here's your host, Ryan Foland.
Ryan Foland: Ahoy, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The World of Speakers. And I'm excited today because we have the world's most industrious storyteller here with us, none other than Park Howell. And he is somebody who I've connected with many times. We actually share a little publication together with some stick figures. We've been doing the social media marketing world syndicate.
We've seen each other on stages all over the place. And I figure... there's never a better time than now to become a better storyteller. And at the end of the day, storytelling is your superpower.
So who better to talk to about the business of story than the man, the myth, the legend himself? Park, welcome to the show, buddy.
Park Howell: Ahoy, Ryan. Man, it's great to be back.
Ryan Foland: Yes. And ahoy to you as well. It's been a little bit of time since we've connected. So I want to ask you, when I ask every guest, what has been a story that shaped you?
And I'll challenge you to share a story that shaped you since the last time we talked with you.
Park Howell: A story that shaped me since the last time we talked. Boy, that's a good one.
I'm trying to think the last time we talked must have been maybe even pre -pandemic. I'm not sure. One of the things that has really shaped me, Ryan, is while I am out teaching, the three frameworks that we teach at the Business of Story to help people be more clear and compelling,
I've learned that a lot of people are missing the strategy of it, is once they got it figured out on how to tell a story in a speech or in their branding or whatever, they haven't really strategized, and they came to me a couple, three months ago when I had a client say, "Well, this is great. "We've got all these stories parked, "but now we're not really... really sure where to tell them.
And out of the blue, I had this guy by the name of Doreen Disa, Indian gentleman living in Switzerland, suggests to me, Park, you should think about, you know, with storytelling becoming more known, liked, entrusted, and everybody has heard that before, right? Bob Berge, a famous sales guru coined the term and he said all things being equal, people buy from and refer business to people they know, like, and trust." So with that, Ryan, since I saw you last, I have developed the know, like, and trust storytelling flywheel, inspired by Jim Collins' flywheel effect that he introduced in his book Good to Great back in 2001, which is really more of an operational type flywheel for business.
Mine is very much of a storytelling strategy flywheel to help you as a brand, a speaker, a personal brand, professional brand, whatever it is to become better known in the market for what it is you do, what you stand for. So you stand out in very crowded, noisy world out there. Your likability goes up when you actually tell stories about the impact you're making in the world versus leading with a bunch of features and functions and boring bullet lists. And then the trust factor comes in when you deliver on the promises you make in those stories.
And it could be the promises you make in that speech when you get up that people like not only like you more, they trust you and they start sharing your story with their world, which revolves right back to the top of the virtuous cycle of being... better known, more liked, and immensely trusted. So that's something that came down starting in October of last year, and I have really dialed that in. In fact, my show this week is the 450th episode of the Business of Story, and I walk people through how to activate their know, like, and trust storytelling flywheel.
Ryan Foland: Well, if people, well people can't see us, but I'm smiling ear to ear because I literally just gave a talk yesterday to an international crowd on the topic of networking.
And I do a lot of work with personal branding and I always talk about the power of people who understand this concept that people first have to get to know you.
I say that, you know, it's up to them whether they like you or not based on how they... know you and then if they like you and they get to know you over time, it creates this trust. And I, of course, have a thick figure diagram with it. I can share that. You can use that as well. But for me, I think that the getting to know people is where I focus most because stories is what helps you get to know them.
And I think that a lot of times people will jump to content that they think people will like. And as a result, they might not tell the stories that weren't so good, or the bad and the ugly part. And you focus on, well, I think they're going to like this because it makes me look good, but it doesn't set the foundation for trust. Because if you look at all the people that you trust in your life, you have put a certain amount of time. Like, you can't instantly trust. You love how storytelling is. just that magic that can connect people together.
Now my question to you, because you've been at this for so long and this is me getting to know you more, sometimes people get stuck in their shtick and it's just like, you know, you've been talking about story forever but what I'm seeing from this is that you're constantly learning, you're moving, you're creating new things, you're taking other giants and standing on their shoulders and reinventing and I think that is something I've always appreciated about you and this story reinforces it.
I mean like story by itself is a very deep rabbit hole, but every time that I see you there's like a new spin and there's something new to it. So is this like evolution of how you teach stories something that has always been the case and is it going to continue to evolve?
Park Howell: Well, yeah, it really is. Before we started recording here, Ryan, you were telling me about your sailboat and how, you know, you have this way is a 32 foot 34 foot.
So yeah, I mean, it's a yacht. It's a big piece of equipment that requires lots and lots of maintenance, right? And you had told me that during the pandemic, you were having a hard time getting people to come out and work on your boat. So you are a very gifted, talented, experienced salesman. Salesman, how do you like that?
Ryan Foland: Yeah, I like that.
Park Howell: Yeah, skipper. But then you had to go in and realize that, all right, I've got to find the courage and start taking on some of these projects on your own.
And you started doing this and built, and you even said to me, you got to know your boat even better. A more of a personal connection because of it. I would say the same thing as with me in storytelling.
Now, we teach three primal frameworks, the ABT, the five primal elements of a short story in the 10 step story cycle system. I never deviate from those because I know how well they work, but they work in different ways, in different settings to different audiences. And I just realize that, okay, I've got to start working on my sailboat at the Business of Story and find a better way to teach the strategy around how you incorporate these story structures into all of your communication. So that's it, you know, it's like anything you really love and passionate about, you never stop learning about it. What's a new way? What's a better way? What's happening now that I can use to have a greater impact or share with people so that they can have a greater impact in the world?
Ryan Foland: And I love that. that. And one of the things you said is that, I mean, the boat itself has been around since 1977, right? Before me even. And it at its core floats the functionalities there.
It's got its keel, it's got its waterline, it's got its mess, it's got all these things. But literally yesterday or the day before I forget, I think on Wednesdays I go down to work on the boat. But I literally got new sales last year. And one of the things that I love about the boat sales is like an inch or two, it's off. And so I contacted the sale maker and he was cool. And so I took down the sale to have a remade, but I'm not looking to replace my boat.
I'm looking to get new sales and I'm looking to trim the sales and I'm looking to get upgrade the technology. But the fundamental story of Bingo, 'cause that's her name, like will not change, but she will be modified and she will be improved and she will be improved and she will be improved that's a really interesting parallel because if you love the topic that you speak on, that should be the topic, right?
You're not like, you don't want to be flipping new topics every time and your brand story will be, will be diluted. But you've got this one vessel, this one boat, this one ship. And as long as it's seaworthy, like your goal is to make it as fast, as safe, as reliable, as fun and even just just from talking about your shtick for so long. It keeps it fresh and it makes it fun and it keeps it alive. It keeps that relationship alive. I mean, let's talk about ships. You talk about relationships. If you don't innovate your relationships, they will die off and stagnate because it's not about getting to know someone.
It's about knowing them over time and having experiences with them. I look at it in business, things start off as partnerships and then maybe turn into sponsorships and then maybe turn into relationships and then maybe there's friendships.
I just see the world in this idea of ships and I really like that you brought back that I literally said I'm getting to know my boat more and I like my boat and I trust my boat because of that so that's very cool.
Park Howell: Well and in my speaking and in my key notes in the workshops and mastery courses I do, I do have a 34 -foot boat that I lean on and that I sail around and I share with lots of people because I know how fast it is. I know how effective it is. I know how seaworthy it is. I will say I am always trimming those sails depending on who my audience is, finding new and relevant examples that I can share with them,
even examples from their own company so that they can see my process working in their lives. It makes it very relevant. And it's just, I love the ship metaphor because that's exactly it.
I've got the vessel. I just got to keep trimming the sales.
Ryan Foland: Yeah. Well, you were going to love my new book series that's coming out called, "Getting Your Ship Together" about showmanship, entrepreneurship, partnership, all the ships. Just I think we all could get our ship together a little bit more.
Park Howell: I love that. And I'm going to have you on the show as soon as you hit, you know, the publish button on that. I can't wait to hear that.
Ryan Foland: Awesome. They'll be filled with your favorite stick figures.
Park Howell: Right on.
Ryan Foland: This is great. I feel like I'm going to know you a little bit more.
Park Howell: Are those stick figures or a shtick figure?
Ryan Foland: Ah, I see what you're shayin' there. Little trim sale there. Let's transition to talking about how people can better get their shtick together when it comes to the art of showmanship.
It's one thing to, I was just talking with a client this morning, there are three things I believe that happen on stage. What you're saying, how you're saying it, and where on stage you say it.
So what is some of the most relevant or exciting trim sailing advice for showmanship in today's day and age? And the more nuanced, the better, because we've all heard, know your audience, we've all heard, blah, blah, blah. What's something that is on your vessel that you think you could share with other people that is helping it really chart through those waters?
Park Howell: Yeah, one way that you can really stand out is how you approach your speaking gig. And so often it's really B2B for the most part. It seems like where most of those speaking opportunities come from.
And, you know, business to business or B2B should not mean boring to bored. So what I love that.
Ryan Foland: Wait a minute. Did you coin that? Say that again, please.
Park Howell: B2B should not mean boring to board. Right?
Ryan Foland: Yeah.
Park Howell: So I want all speakers.
Ryan Foland: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Should it be more of a P2B, a permission to board?
Park Howell: Well, you could. You could do a permission to board the vessel. In my case, the Business of Story vessel when I, you know, training out there. But I don't think about it as a presentation. I think about it as performance arts and you've got to be able to go into that room.
It could be a board room. It could be a big gathering somewhere, whatever. And you need to entertain that audience and through that entertainment, the highs and the lows, the fun, the fearful stuff, through that entertainment is how you educate. I think the biggest mistake B2B speakers make as they go in and they lead with logic and reason and numbers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, when what that audience really wants is the context and emotional pull of a story. And I mean one of my favorite quotes of all time comes from one of the foremost American social psychologists Jonathan Haidt who said The mind is a story processor not a logic processor. So that's why I always begin I always take my audience as through a performance It is performance art that I'm up there to entertain them getting them to lean in so that they are open to the Education that will then come from it.
Ryan Foland: I love that. I have a friend, John Bates. You might know him. Maybe you're past this cross and he talks about how getting your message across is not logical. It's biological. And I'm interested in your, I guess understanding of the biology of this because from my, let's just say my take on it from what I understand is that and this is a I was obsessed with this this was my first TEDx talk around this concept and the talk is called how to not get chased by a bear and I'm fascinated with the biological response to threats to emails from your boss to calls from unknown numbers to all these things were like these invisible bears jump out in our daily lives and the physiological reaction is the same as though we're on the tundra being chased after a lion.
But the difference is when you're on the tundra, you run three miles as fast as you can and then you get all those endorphins out of your body or you get eaten, right? And so the biology of the brain in the stem of the brain, which is where it all started, my understanding is that part of the brain, also known as the mammalian brain or the croc brain, because it's what a crocodile has and what the core, it tries to help you not die at the end of the day. That's it. From my understanding, everything has to pass through the croc brain in order to get to the higher level, prefrontal. cortex, where you can actually interpret the logic. And so what you're talking about, and I love this as a subject, is that the best way to get past the crock brain is a story, because that is non -threatening. That, from the history of our evolution, has been something in the way that we're communicating. So this idea of, I mean, I always try to, I literally always start with a story.
I'm asking my guest, tell me a story. Like, I feel like that goes through and passes go to collect $200 to then get to the logic. So I'm curious your thoughts or if that sounds like it's accurate or what not.
Park Howell: Yeah, I've read a lot of that same sort of material and I buy into it too. It's the limbic brain. It's where the hippocampus and the migtula are sitting in the subconscious. And they operate on their own. To your point, they have one job and one job only and that is survival of the being. And you think about it. Storytelling was the first real technology any caveman or cavewoman used because they used it as a learning tool of how not to get eaten so that they could not only survive the savannah but thrive and evolve into where we are today.
But then this frontal lobe, this neocortex has vastly grown where our amygdala has not, the limbic brain has not. And so we've been able to create this technology that expounds at the compounds at the rate of Moore's Law through internet and whatever, which is compounding the amount of information blasting us every day at the rate of Moore's Law and then some, yet our limbic brain is not built to take in all of this massive noise coming at it.
What it is designed to do is to make sense out of stories and one of our frameworks as you know, it's called the and but therefore it's the DNA of all storytelling. You want this and it's important to you because of this, but you're frustrated because you don't have it due to this. There's the problem you're solving for therefore Therefore, here's the way forward with us. You're opening a story loop for the limbic brain. You are giving it a plot twist that then begs the question, how does this end? And of course, how it ends is with your call to action. So the end, but therefore plays off of what we call the three forces of story of agreement, contradiction, consequence. And again, our patterns -seeking, problem -solving, decision -making, buying limbic brain loves to get messages delivered in that format.
Set a problem resolution, agreement, contradiction, consequence, because it doesn't have to work for it. It doesn't have to burn any calories trying to understand what you're talking about.
Think of it as the ideal software or algorithm that you are feeding into the hard drive of the limbic decision -making buying brain. That's the power of storytelling.
Ryan Foland: Creach, that is it. Now, that's a lot to take in. So for someone who is speaking and wants to be more entertaining and wants to understand that it's performance art, what are some of the ways that they can strategically implement the story? And again, this isn't like the general stuff. We understand..
Park Howell: We're sold on stories.
Ryan Foland: Do you start with a story? Do you create the open loop for the story? Like, are there some things that, from a framework perspective, maybe it taps into your new flywheel based on Bob Berg and Jim Collins? And I know I don't want to spoil an alert for your next episode, but it all sounds great. And then once you try to figure it out, or put it together, I've seen people just not incorporate stories correctly, or it just doesn't seem to work.
And they're like, but I told a story. They're like, yeah, but so what are some of the finer nuances here? And not too much. Just maybe like one off the shelf that can move a needle.
Park Howell: I'm going to give you two off the shelf to both move the needle.
Number one, I like to start with surprise that may or may not be a story. I just want to surprise that audience like, whoa, this is going to be different.
And if you've ever seen my deck, you will know that it is very different than what they're mostly used to. But like, for instance, Ryan, when they introduced me and I come up on stage, I've got my slide up there.
It's kind of looks like Clipart, a little Monty Python -esque. And I have Monty Python playing always look on the bright side of life. And I come waltzing up and I'm singing along and when they go to the whistling part, I get the audience to whistle and all of a sudden this seagull that is sitting on the top of this guy's head gets up and flies off the deck. And now I've got the whole crowd looking at me like, "What in the hell is this?" And then one of those final strains, and it only takes about 20 seconds to go through that song. I've got them involved with me. They're like, "What's gonna happen next?" They don't know what's gonna happen next.
So I want to always keep them surprised, and then I will provide a little bit of foreshadowing of things to come. But even before I do that, and here's where the and but therefore comes into play.
As a speaker, and this has worked for any speaker, I want you to answer these five questions about your audience so that you can find the through line to your presentation.
Number one, get very specific on who that audience is in your mind, even write it down. What do they want relative to this presentation that you're gonna make today?
And why is it important to them? This way you as a speaker really have done to the discovery to understand your audience and appreciate what they want and why that's important to them.
Then you come to the end of the presentation. the butt section relative to your presentation design, but why don't they have it? What's the big one problem you are going to solve for them today in your speaker presentation?
And then they're there for, how are you going to solve it for them? You know, what is your presentation going to be? I always like to start with that so that I can trim the sales on the vessel of my business of story keynote to make sure that I'm talking expressly to that audience. After that, then I will come in and I will shape the presentation. It's already shaped, but I'm going to trim it out. And I'm going to use stories, and these stories are under a minute long. Sometimes it leaves 30 seconds, little anecdotes to make my business points for me as I go through it. And I'll set it up with an ABT.
I will share a little bit. little story to illustrate it, to show my point in action. And then and only then will I back it up with the logic and reason. Because I've used the story to be the Trojan horse to get my self inside of their head.
And then I roll out the logic and the reason and the workshop and you know how, okay, here's how you do it, let's dive in. And then Ryan, someone last year I was working at the University of Dayton Center for Leadership and I did a full day session there with them and one of the ladies in the crowd raised her hand and she goes how many stories have you told us today to make those the points you made and I had to go back and recount it in my mind turned out that I had delivered 28 points about storytelling using stories to illustrate the point in action and that I can't underscore more, you know, hard enough that people will argue with your expertise, they will argue with your opinions, with your assertions, with your data points, but they won't argue with a true story well told because they can see it in action and it's true.
So that's what I like to do, ABT, story logic, ABT, story logic and I sprinkle those out through my presentation all the way through. I love it.
Ryan Foland: Alright, so I'm curious, a little story coaching on a framework that I've put together for the stories that I tell and how I share to tell stories. The story I'll tell to illustrate the story because I'm learning from you here.
Imagine that you walk into a room that you've never been in before. Without you even knowing it, you're making. making sure that the floor is sturdy. You hear parrots in the outside, but we have long beach parrots here. They fly by and you're like, wait, okay, so there's parrots outside. There's a window. If there's an emergency, I can go through there. The door is over there. The ceiling, nope. I'm not going to hit my head on the ceiling. Oh, there's a ceiling fan. It's not on. It's kind of bright in here. Okay, I feel safe. And that all happens within a fraction of a second. That's at least what I'm understanding in my research from the science of it. And so imagine a story being parallel to that, where somebody is stepping you into this room and they're like, "Hey, here's where you are, sturdy ground, there's where you go in an emergency, the lights, are they too bright? Are they okay? You could be comfortable? Oh, the noise, those are just parents, don't worry about it. Okay, now let's get you comfortable."
And the reason why I think this is important, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, if you don't tell people in the story who's there, when it was, why you were there, what's going on, like the who, what, when, where, why, how, the five why, four why's and an age or whatever, if you don't establish what the room is, then that person is going to be wondering what that is during the story and they're not gonna be listening to the story. So if you tell a story, but forget to tell who was there, or you tell a story and you forget to tell when it was or you forget to tell a story and say how you got there, I believe that people while you're telling the story are going to be a little bit disoriented like into a room with blindfolds on or into a room where you know there's some sort of their sensory perception that's gone and I'm curious your thoughts on that because it's a simple formula but I feel like it's powerful because for people who don't know how to tell stories be like like, okay, who was there, what was happening? When was it happening? Okay, just take those elements and set the frame and tell the story. So I'm curious your thoughts on that from the framework.
Park Howell: It's very similar to the second framework that we teach called the five primal elements of a short story for big impact. And these elements you were talking earlier about me standing on the shoulder of giants, which is absolutely right, because I learned them. them from Sean and Mark over at Anecdote in Melbourne, Australia. And here are the five things that kind of fall in the same way that you're talking about the who, what, where, when, why, and how type thing that we learned in journalism class way back when, but it's not an inverted pyramid as you learned in journalism way back when. I want you, when you're telling a story, think about it as being a moment in time. A lot of people. get freaked out about, I can't tell stories, no one wants to hear my stories. Okay, great.
Take story out of your nomenclature, out of your head and just share a moment in time when everything changed that makes your business point for you and here's how you do it. Start with a timestamp.
When did this happen and be as specific as you possibly can? Two days ago, you know? 10am this morning, you won't believe what happened.
What that does, we believe is it alerts that limbic brain that, oh, something must have happened since stories are temporal, they happen over time. I better pay attention to learn what happened and what I would do in case it ever happens to me or this body, so that I know how to protect it.
Ryan Foland: So time's more than an orientation to this space or the setting or the timing, it's about them, your limbic brain saying this is important in case I need to know how to not die in this situation or--
Park Howell: Exactly right.
And I wanna start with the time stamp and I wanna be as specific as possible as to when this happened. And then a location stamp. Where did it happen? And in that location, used two or three descriptive words.
You know, last Tuesday, I was in-- Nashville, Tennessee, and it was hot, sweaty, you know, but fun because I was listening to all this great music as I walked down the road so that what you're doing when you give the location stamp with some detail to it is now you're firing up the theater of the mind.
You get the attention of the Olympic brain with that timestamp. You fire up the theater of the mind so they can start picturing it, feeling it or all. "Oh, I've been in Nashville," or, you know, they can start relating to it, and then you introduce your central character. It could be about you, it could be about a customer, it could be a client or whatever.
Ryan Foland: But it's not-- That's the who.
Park Howell: Yeah, it's not two people. It's not a team.
You're not introducing a department or an organization. Our brain wants to know about one individual, and by proxy, they represent the greater whole. Who's that individual?
Describe them quickly. And then let us know, what did they want? What was at stake for what they were trying to accomplish? This essentially is your end statement of agreement or act one.
It's exposition, timestamp, location stamp, central character, what it is that they want. Then you jump into the fourth element, which is action/surprise or the, but the plot twist. So they tried to do this, but then this happened. Then it led to this and this happened. And they were out of their minds because they thought, boy, the end was in sight, blah, blah, blah, until they did this.
And wow, were they surprised or blown away about the impact that they had, which leads to your aha moment with business storytelling, such as you use stories to set context and to attract that limbic brain into the story. So Michelle and I, my wife, Michelle and I, this was pre -pandemic March 2019. We were down in Auckland, New Zealand, and I was doing a full day session there for the big social media gathering. We traveled around, had a great time, then went up to Melbourne, Australia, and stayed for a week up there with her friend, Patty, that she went to college with. While there, I got a chance to meet Patty's boyfriend at the time. He was a Swedish guy selling German, very expensive German car washes in Australia. How he got there, and you'll love this, Ryan, as a young man at 21 years old, he got on a 24 foot boat out of Stockholm.
He sailed around the world and he landed in Melbourne. When he got to Melbourne, he loved it so much he never left. So we were sitting there and we were having this conversation and he's a big sweet guy and he looks at me over a glass of wine and he says, "Oh, what's this storytelling stuff?" I could see he was very much of a skeptic with it, right? How does it work? Business storytelling. And I wish I could do a Swedish accent because it would add more to it, but I just put it.
So I said, "Per, tell me about a time when you were sailing by yourself and you had that sort of Tom Hanks moment where like a whale came up and gave you a high five or something weird, some natural phenomenon happened to you." And he looked at me and he was still skeptical. And he said, "I don't know, Park. I don't have any of those stories." And I just sat there, right?
It was like a 9 second, 10 second, 11 second, really awkward pause. And then he says, well, there was that one time. And I go, what's that? He goes, well, I was sailing through the Galapagos Island. And I came to this channel that, you know, and this is back in the day with no GPS. He was dead reckoning everything, no cell phone.
So he was on his own on his boat. And he said, the sun was starting to go down. And I didn't want to take on this channel, you know, and lose daylight. And I went, well, I was sailing through the Galapagos Island. I decided to anchor and I was going to take it on the morning.
Well, the next morning, and then he asked me this question, have you ever heard that eerie squealing that dolphins make in the wild? And I go, no, never have.
He goes, Well, I woke up to that. And it was such a ruckus. I had to go up top. The sun was just coming up and I had seven or eight dolphins swimming around my boat squeaking, you know, squealing at me. And I said, what were they doing? He goes, well, I looked up and I realized that the tide had gone out a lot farther than I had anticipated.
And I was probably about 20 minutes from wrecking my boat and myself on the rocks. And I said, do you think they were warning you of that? And he goes, what else could it have been?
So I raised anchor and I sailed through the channel and everything was fine. I go, that's cool. I go, have you ever told that story before? And he said, no, but then he got this wry smile on his face.
And I go, what? He goes, you just reminded me, Park, that virtually every major car wash sale I have ever made always came on the heels of me telling a story about sailing around the world.
And I go, why do you think that is Per? He goes, I have no idea. People just like the adventure. I said, yes, they like the adventure, but if I'm going to spend a whole boatload of money on a German car wash in Melbourne, Australia, I would want a guy like you on my crew to have my back. You demonstrated to me your industriousness, your trustworthiness, your courage and I've got to believe that you would back me up if anything ever gone wrong with my car wash that you would be there for me. And he goes, "I've never thought of it that way before." And I said, "That is the power of a well -told story to build trust."
Ryan Foland: Boom. I love it. We can hear the dolphins applauding in the background. Now, I do have a couple of questions. It sounds like thinking within the framework there. You know, you started with you and your wife, and then you put the time in, which is still at the very beginning. And then I was waiting for that character, and then the character arose. So you're still introducing individuals that are in the scene, but there's that one lead character that was one…
Park Howell: Per was the character, and I just needed to set the scene so the audience could picture where the hell was I was drinking wine in a restaurant in Melbourne with this big Swedish dude.
Ryan Foland: Right. So but when you were saying the framers like one person the story, but that that doesn't mean you can create context to figure out discover who that one character is. So that was good insight.
Park Howell: Yep. We want to be very focused on that one character.
Ryan Foland: Yep. Yes. No. So again, in my mind, some people are extreme. They're like, Oh, I can only talk about one person. But how do I do that? So contextually, you're still setting this scene, but there is that one physical character.
It wasn't a story about you. your wife, and him that was about him.
Park Howell: Well, think about Star Wars. Who is that story about?
Ryan Foland: Luke.
Park Howell: Yes, he has all this cast of characters around him, but that story is about Luke, the Wizard of Oz. Who is that story about?
Ryan Foland: That's a Dorothy story.
Park Howell: Dorothy, by the way, if you line up the Wizard of Oz and Star Wars side by side, it's the exact same story. It happens at the same page. in the same way, you think of the Death Star, right? And the Wicked Witch's Castle, same thing. Darth Vader, Wicked Witch, same thing. You know, you start thinking about Obi -Wan Kenobi in that, you know, all the people that helped Dorothy, it's the same thing.
Ryan Foland: Is that the Byronic Hero? Is that what it is?
Park Howell: The Byronic Hero?
Ryan Foland: Yes.
Park Howell: I don't know what's Byronic. I'm not familiar with that.
Ryan Foland: It's the Byronic Hero. hero has a specific journey that they go through which follows the kind of the classic you know call to action and that but I believe at least so beowulf is like the original bironic hero definition and story and so many of stories from the past have been formed on that but in my mind it was the bironic hero was that classic luke skywalker dorthy everything like that so maybe the word isn't used as much, but that's in my head.
Park Howell: Oh, okay, yeah.
Ryan Foland: So I think that plays an interesting point. And I will point out this idea, like I don't have any stories, right? But like, you can't even think of it. Yet upon reflection, he does it every time before sale. And I think that's the interesting about stories, similar with public speaking, especially with people who are not a public speaker. I'm like, well, have you spoken in public today? And like, oh, oh. Oh. and I have a whole rap about it too, a public speaking rap, because I ask them, who's the public speaker?
And then literally nobody raises their hand or one, and you're like, all right, how many people spoken in public today? And they're confused. I'm like, literally you, have you spoken in public? They're like, no, you just did.
And then it's like, I buzzed into, if you speak in public, then you are a public speaker. It's a scientific fact that you cannot argue either. I just, you know, surprise them.
Park Howell: Yep. Yeah.
Ryan Foland: But back to this story, the framework I usually work through, which is the who, what, when, where, why, how, in order to add, I guess, more sensory to it, I've always shared with people to add things that play to the senses.
So what did you see? What did you hear? What did you feel? What did you smell? And you kind of played some of those as you were talking like, you know, or I heard the music downtown in that prior story, but I think that's an interesting your five or the five who, what, when, where, but a story is just like not as this role unless you help bring the senses. Like, what did you smell? What did you taste? What did you hear? And the final comment, we'll move to the next section here. I'm just, I'm loving this. I find people tell stories. Stories, they retell them instead of reliving them, and I think that's such a huge difference. There I was, I did this, I met this person, here's what happened here, versus there I was, and I could see it and I would smell it. I imagine that is a huge part of an effective story.
Park Howell: It is, and I love that point, instead of telling them, live them. And the one thing I would caution people on, to your point, it is, is important to be able to get the senses involved, but don't go too far with it. Because then you sound too flowery. If it's not natural to you, you know, don't take it too far because it sounds like you've written, you know, a soliloquy versus just sharing a story. And you know what, it only takes a few choice words, dropped in at the right place to describe what's happening, the feel, the sense, the smell, the fear, the anger, the whatever, without going overboard with it.
Ryan Foland: Love it. Well, I love it.
Park Howell: No, overboarding with it. Another. Another.
Ryan Foland: You're just hitting the boatload of funny things here. All right. So let's transition to the last part of the show, which is really about building your speaking business.
How do you get on more stages? How do you get out there more? Because I don't know if you have a story and no one hears it. it, does it actually fit? The theory is great until somebody can pay us to get up on stage or we can share our stories to make impact.
Because again, sometimes it's about the mission and not the commission. But what's the best tip or maybe if you want to do the two tips, what's working for you now or what's not working? I was sharing with you before the call. I'm not getting the large honorariums that I had been in the past. It seems like it's a weird time. I'm picking up more personal clients. But what do you tell people right now about building that business granted that they've got the stories to tell?
Park Howell: Yeah, I've seen the same thing, Ryan, and I've talked to a lot of other speakers. The speaking world has definitely been down since probably June of last year, mine included. So my one thing is have something to fall back on in the same vein of what you talked about.
So I come from... the branding, marketing world, and I am doing a whole lot of work right now with brands, not rebranding them, not redesigning their logo or any of that, helping them do a better job of refining their story and then teaching them how to tell it and strategizing using the flywheel, story time flywheel on how to do it. And I've been fortunate, like you, is while my speaking honorariums have dropped off, well, that brand business, storytelling business has really, really picked up and helps, you know, take me through till the speaking gigs come back against. So I think for any speaker out there, you'd be very wise is don't put all of your, you know, don't put your sailboats all on one trailer for right now, loud, have two trailers.
Ryan Foland: Don't put all your fenders in one basket, right?
Park Howell: Thank you, that's it, that's better. You're the skipper here. Have a fall back. That is... still in line with what you do on stage. Be able to help people one -on -one in teams and companies that way and don't just rely on that stage income.
Ryan Foland: I like it. And at the end of the day, it's all just adding to your own brand story, right? It's hard to just be a purist keynote speaker and there are a handful of people that are the top picks of certain bureaus that have more business they know what to do with. But for the majority of people, it's still a grind, it's still a fight to get that going. So I'll kind of end with this question. We'll see where this all sort of comes full circle to.
How can speakers use story to sell into more stages? Understanding that on stage, it's key. But how do you see storytelling in selling yourself on the stages to tell the story before the big ticket car wash or whatnot? Is there any strategy or frameworks to help people see the story before they tell the story on stage?
Park Howell: Yeah, well, I'm gonna sound very redundant here, Ryan. In all of my pitches, I begin with Nan, but therefore. And they're typically written, you know, I mean, you don't usually get someone on the phone to pitch yourself, you've got to send something in and then get them. So I do my discovery on what the speaking gig is, what the room is, who's in it and what the, I believe the wins are. And then I will write a very short paragraph using the end, but therefore relative to that show producer's audience, what's in it for them, why they should care, but what's the thing they got to be looking for, you know, that you are going to help them fix their phone. I'm the speaker for that. Always start with X. I want to hook that limbic brain in a very short, crisp way up top. Then I will actually follow up with a little bit of logic and reason at this point, because I don't have time for a big story. They're not going to read that. I will give them the three, four, five takeaways that their audience is going to get. Then at the very end, I might insert a little tiny story thinking, I don't care if they read it or not. They may have bolted by this point. They might like, like just what they did up there.
But to anchor it, bring, there we go. Another, there we go. We're going to anchor it with a quick little story of how I've done that, done this for a like organization and hopefully have a quote there from the person that booked me for it.
You know, singing my praises as a storyteller. So I don't typically start or lead with a story, but I do use the three forces of story with an ABT, Agreement Contradiction Consequence, 'cause all I wanna do is quickly hook that limbic decision -making brain. -
Ryan Foland: Like a fish, hook it, and you've got the bait.
Park Howell: Man, my dad was a big sailor, so it must just be completely ingrained in my brain, I guess.
Ryan Foland: Well, I appreciate your time today sailing together here, and I took a lot of notes, and it's just refreshing to go back to not overthinking and just focusing on what has worked for human communication since the beginning of technology, which is just telling stories. And I always tell people storytelling is your biggest superpower, and you want to give a pitch. It's not a pitch, it's a story. You want to get a job. It's not pitching yourself. It's helping them to see that you can add to the story. And I really am a big believer that these stories don't have to be stories of success. Because if that's what you're looking for, there's fewer to pick from. It's less relatable. And it sometimes comes across as arrogant. And my book "Ditch the Act" and the whole concept of just being transparent and authentic, if you can focus more on helping people see themselves in your story, then that's really where people get to know you. And if they do like you, it sets the foundation for trust.
And as we know, people want to do business with, people want to connect with, people want to have relationships with those who they know, like, and trust.
So it's great to get to know you a little bit more. I still like you and I trust that we will see each other soon, hopefully on his stage somewhere.
Park Howell: Well, Ryan, thank you so much. It's been great sailing with you today.
Ryan Foland: Yes. And I will suggest people check out your podcast. And I think we had connected on LinkedIn because both of our podcasts got named on some list.
And you're like, "Oh, look, Ryan's down there too." And then we reconnected from there. So tell us a little bit about your podcast, about how people can connect with you, how people can hire you, how people can help make stories with you.
Park Howell: Well, thanks for that, Ryan. Yeah, my show is The Business of Story. You can find it everywhere. That you find podcasts, I've been doing it for a while, going on nine years now. I've got, like I said, 450 episodes every Monday. I bring in a new storytelling savant from around the world to teach tips and techniques on how to use story in your business.
Just track me down at park @ businessofstory .com That's my email. You can just send it to that or hit me up on LinkedIn. That's the place I spend my most, most of my time.
And again, because I have such a weird name, Ryan, which is Park Howell, just search for me there and you'll find me on LinkedIn. Love to connect with you there. Got a couple of books, the Brand Bewitchery, which is my textbook on how to use the story cycle system to craft spellbinding stories for your brand. You can get that on Amazon or I co-wrote the book, The Narrative Gym for Business, which is a short little 75 page guide on how to use the ABT in your world.
I co -wrote it with the guy that introduced me to the ABT so many years ago, Dr. Randy Olson. That's the best way that I can help you right now.
Ryan Foland: And I hear one of those books is illustrated by somebody.
Park Howell: Well, no, that's another book. That's one that you and I did way back when. - And that was about the... the, oh, what? Gosh, that was so long ago.
Ryan Foland: I drew you as Merlin, the Merlin storytelling.
Park Howell: Yeah, it we were viewed at social media marketing world. We were doing a playoff of the five sequences of death, you know, denial and this sort of thing.
But we twisted that and said, you know, here are the five stages of death in your storytelling. These are the stories you're telling yourself that make you believe you're not a good storyteller when everybody has the story within them.
And like Per, that Swedish sailor, you know, carwash, German carwash salesman. Look, he was using stories intuitively. We all use them intuitively as homo sapiens storytelling apes, basically. I just want people to be intentional about them, just like you teach on your great show. here, Ryan, and using these frameworks so that you are intentionally sharing a story.
You're not winging it, you're winning every single time you do it.
Ryan Foland: I love it, that's awesome. Well, for those of you listening, if you are now inspired to tell your story and inspired to find stages and learn about how to get more exposure as a speaker, well, check out our sponsor, SpeakerHub. It's one of many platforms where you can be found. You can build your own speaker splash page. You can do a call for speakers. I've been fortunate of landing a number of gigs from there. I keep my eyes on it.
Again, just one more place to be found. So SpeakerHub helps to feel this and I always love to give them a shout out. And if you want to hear more about my stories, if you want to bring me to your stage, if you want a rapper, you let me know. You can find me online if you remember my name and Park, my name is Ryan and if you want to find me online then you just go to ryan.online, it's as simple as we got.
Park Howell: That's beautiful what is right full until online, I love that right now.
Ryan Foland: I know I haven't changed my last name but now I know
Park Howell: Just joking!
Ryan Foland: Yes well hey hey, I'm sure there's another show in our future about joking and storytelling where they collide, but for now, I'm glad that we talk all about ships to help people get their storytelling ships together.
Park Howell: Yep, thank you, Ryan. Great to see you again.
Ryan Foland: All right.
Park Howell: Love being on your show.
A bit about World of Speakers
World of Speakers is a bi-weekly podcast that helps people find their own voice and teaches them how to use their voice to develop a speaking business.
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